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Old 07-01-2021, 11:36 AM   #26
hk 40
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In my mind when it comes to slap and blow by id be more concerned about the preparatory machining that should be truly be done to a worn block prior to the rebuild versus the tune. The piston rings stack design and fit are very important. A good motor machinist will match his prepared rings with specific pistons and bores and labels them as such. The machinist and his equipment matter. Im of the opinion that the preparatory machining operations and the basic assembly of the motor are critical for optimal performance and durability no matter what piston you decide to use. On your side of the pond acquiring good machining and a quality tune will not be an issue. Since you're already in there and blowing rods out why not push the envelop beyond 300 hp with a 16 valve head and internals . I dont know about you motor but a turbo volvo rods can handle 300 hp easily so why make a switch to a billet rod with a stock mahle for 300 hp. Its seems a little crazy because a lighter piston relieves alot of rod stress seen otherwise so it makes more sense to put a lighter piston on the stock rod if all i want is 300 hp. Once I start playing with h beams I'd want more than 300 hp or there's really no need to spend the coin there. This is just my opinion.


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Old 07-01-2021, 11:59 AM   #27
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stock rods bend pretty easy, even the 'big' 13mm late b230 rods. As cheap as Hbeam rods are, I'd swap them and keep the stock pistons for a budget build (esp something like an in frame job). And by cheap, I mean.. you'll almost spend as much on gaskets and fluids as the rods for something like that. (~$250 or so I believe is the going rate these days for stock replacement hbeam rods) These are not some sort of super amazing product, but they're the same thing as pretty much any eagle rod or any other manufacturer's 'budget hbeam' rod. I would say spend the extra money and get legit arp bolts, but I suppose YMMV and what not.

I would look for more than 300hp if I did a full refresh on a bottom end as well, self control when you've handled the hard part can be difficult lol
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:10 PM   #28
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stock rods bend pretty easy, even the 'big' 13mm late b230 rods. As cheap as Hbeam rods are, I'd swap them and keep the stock pistons for a budget build (esp something like an in frame job). And by cheap, I mean.. you'll almost spend as much on gaskets and fluids as the rods for something like that. (~$250 or so I believe is the going rate these days for stock replacement hbeam rods) These are not some sort of super amazing product, but they're the same thing as pretty much any eagle rod or any other manufacturer's 'budget hbeam' rod. I would say spend the extra money and get legit arp bolts, but I suppose YMMV and what not.

I would look for more than 300hp if I did a full refresh on a bottom end as well, self control when you've handled the hard part can be difficult lol
As I said I dont know what stock na rods can handle but they should be able to handle 300 hp so I don't really see the point of h beams if thats all his goal is. I know from empirical experience the ft rods have no issue with these power levels and i think that pretty clear if someone looking around for that information. Id rather spend the 250 on the CNC head work for 300 hp. Thats where power is actually made. Also people making these na to boosted swaps have made the determinations that the stock na rod are okay to run with flattops with boost. No time for the swarm but fundamentally you could expect heavier rod stress with these types of setups so I categorically disagree especially when you are talking about durability that that is the best methodology for building a turbo engine. This argument was moved to off topic which changed nothing for me nor did it help the board to remove such technical debates. Locking it doesn't make people accept whats written as the final word before it comes. Thats a real problem here. It should be evident with a heavier piston on a weaker rod with higher static compression what happens. Seems like another no brainer to me.

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Old 07-01-2021, 12:13 PM   #29
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As I said I dont know what stock na rods can handle but they should be able to handle 300 hp so I dont really see the point of h beams if thats all his goal is. I know from empirical experience the ft rods have no issue with these power levels and i think that pretty clear if someone looking around for that information. Id rather spend the 250 on the head work for 300 hp. Thats where power is actually made. Also people making these na to boosted swaps have made the determinations that the stock na rod should be run with flattops with boost. No time for the swarm but fundamentally you could expect heavy rod stress with these types of setups.
b230f and b230ft bottom ends are exactly the same aside from the pistons. The rods are the same exact part.
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:26 PM   #30
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b230f and b230ft bottom ends are exactly the same aside from the pistons. The rods are the same exact part.

Sorry I wasnt talking to you but since you butted in I wasn't referring to a 230f or 230FT rods and if thats the case the rods can def handle 300 hp so again this only strengthens the argument that starting with h-beam doesn't really make that much sense since a lighter piston actually take stress of a rod that can already handle 300 hp.... I still stand by the argument that the preparatory machining to make sure everything is straight and true is most important for reliability and durability in a rebuild rebuild not what pistons he uses or his tune.

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Old 07-01-2021, 12:29 PM   #31
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The stock rods suck and are better left on stock cars. Have one thing go wrong and they will bend like silly putty.
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:32 PM   #32
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Im sorry but stock rods on a b21ft dont suck at 300 hp. I dont know what happens with na rods or 230ft's but if it is a ft rod it can def handle 300 hp. I know you here just to disagree for the sake of it.
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:33 PM   #33
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Im sorry but stock rods on a b21ft dont suck at 300 hp.
I have a picture that will prove you wrong... I'd take a picture of it now, but it's a paperweight on my lab bench in the classroom.
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:34 PM   #34
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As I said I dont know what stock na rods can handle but they should be able to handle 300 hp so I dont really see the point of h beams if thats all his goal is. I know from empirical experience the ft rods have no issue with these power levels and i think that pretty clear if someone looking around for that information. Id rather spend the 250 on the CNC head work for 300 hp. Thats where power is actually made. Also people making these na to boosted swaps have made the determinations that the stock na rod are okay to run with flattops with boost. No time for the swarm but fundamentally you could expect heavy rod stress with these types of setups so I categorically disagree especially when you are talking about durability that that is the best methodology for building a turbo engine.
in the b230's, the rods are the same na to turbo, as is the crank. NA pistons have a ~ 3cc dish vs the ~12cc dish (or is it 15.. been a while) for the turbo pistons, as well as a tighter and slightly higher ring pack on later NA pistons. In terms of bottom end stress, perhaps there's more on the higher compression ones, but I imagine cylinder pressures and the resultant forces on the crankshaft to produce said hp are going to be fairly similar, the other ingredients will change (boost, timing, possibly fuel).

Honestly, for 300hp, I would just run a stock engine.. either FT or F, whichever was more readily available in good shape, put a decent cam in it (the ubiquitous IPD turbo cam usually), and make sure the other ancillary components were good (Sufficient fuel injector/pump, good intercooler, better exhaust), and a decent turbo that has good exhaust flowing characteristics. That'd give you something that has good street manners, relatively low stress, and with a degree of owner caution and good maintenance, a good service life. This does assume easy access to good quality fuels (either 93/98 if in eu, e85, that sort of thing). The window for tuning mistakes is smaller on a b230F, one would need to keep that in mind if that's the route one takes. I'm a long time 16v person, so I wouldn't pay to cnc an 8v head myself, and depending on the cost of getting someone stateside to develop that program, I'd buy something from sweden instead (and it'd be a 16v anyway... in for a penny, in for a pound)

Obviously the same things that break stock parts break nice aftermarket parts.. aggressive timing, poor quality fuel (or poor state of tune), inattention to detail, not knowing how to treat the vehicle, etc. you just have a smaller window with the oe cast pistons and oe rods. Fair warning, if you put hbeams in an engine, the next likely hard failure point is going to be the pistons (soft point being the headgasket). To a certain extent everything is a trade-off somewhere, but that's kinda the fun of it all, right?
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:38 PM   #35
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To be fair, the b21 rods didn't break... just bent in two planes... the engine kept running. The b230 rods just snapped.
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:39 PM   #36
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in the b230's, the rods are the same na to turbo, as is the crank. NA pistons have a ~ 3cc dish vs the ~12cc dish (or is it 15.. been a while) for the turbo pistons, as well as a tighter and slightly higher ring pack on later NA pistons. In terms of bottom end stress, perhaps there's more on the higher compression ones, but I imagine cylinder pressures and the resultant forces on the crankshaft to produce said hp are going to be fairly similar, the other ingredients will change (boost, timing, possibly fuel).

Honestly, for 300hp, I would just run a stock engine.. either FT or F, whichever was more readily available in good shape, put a decent cam in it (the ubiquitous IPD turbo cam usually), and make sure the other ancillary components were good (Sufficient fuel injector/pump, good intercooler, better exhaust), and a decent turbo that has good exhaust flowing characteristics. That'd give you something that has good street manners, relatively low stress, and with a degree of owner caution and good maintenance, a good service life. This does assume easy access to good quality fuels (either 93/98 if in eu, e85, that sort of thing). The window for tuning mistakes is smaller on a b230F, one would need to keep that in mind if that's the route one takes. I'm a long time 16v person, so I wouldn't pay to cnc an 8v head myself, and depending on the cost of getting someone stateside to develop that program, I'd buy something from sweden instead (and it'd be a 16v anyway... in for a penny, in for a pound)

Obviously the same things that break stock parts break nice aftermarket parts.. aggressive timing, poor quality fuel (or poor state of tune), inattention to detail, not knowing how to treat the vehicle, etc. you just have a smaller window with the oe cast pistons and oe rods. Fair warning, if you put hbeams in an engine, the next likely hard failure point is going to be the pistons (soft point being the headgasket). To a certain extent everything is a trade-off somewhere, but that's kinda the fun of it all, right?
With the right machinist CNC heads aren't particularly expensive. My seats were done this way. A good rebuild complete with line boring, decking, etc shoudnt carry over 2 grand with forged race pistons . I even got my blocked o-ringed and custom all copper head gasket. The factory 21 ft rods were reconditioned for 60 dollars I believe.
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:48 PM   #37
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Im sorry but stock rods on a b21ft dont suck at 300 hp. I dont know what happens with na rods or 230ft's but if it is a ft rod it can def handle 300 hp. I know you here just to disagree for the sake of it.
apples to oranges. b21/23 bottom ends have little to nothing in common with b2xx bottom ends from a mechanical point aside from the paint. different journal sizes, different (shorter) rods, heavier pistons with a lower pin height, etc. they share (maybe) front cover gaskets, oil pan bolt pattern, and a few ancillary things like that, but that's about it. Rods were the same NA to turbo however in the b21/23s

within the realm of b230's there's a variety of things, however on the rod front, the journal size and length did not change from beginning to end WRT the b230's we got stateside. you can put later 13mm rods in an early b230 and rock out (but again, for the time and effort, why... unless they were free, but even still labor..), the early 230's had 9mm rods in both turbo and NA and had 180 degree center thrust cranks (and I think a smaller main journal diameter, but again, haven't looked at those numbers in a long time), then the "K" blocks are a mix-360 rear thrust cranks and some had 9mm rods, some allegedly had the bigger 13mm rods, and then you have the late b230's... rear thrust, 13mm rods, and starting around 93, piston oil squirters (on both NA and turbo models).
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:53 PM   #38
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With the right machinist CNC heads aren't particularly expensive. My seats were done this way. A good rebuild complete with line boring, decking, etc shoudnt carry over 2 grand with forged race pistons . I even got my blocked o-ringed and custom all copper head gasket. The factory 21 ft rods were reconditioned for 60 dollars I believe.
perhaps (re the cnc head part), probably depends on the extent of work desired as well. Reasonably accurate on the machinework costs, some of that is going to be regional, last one I did didn't require line boring, but the rest of it without assembly (and I skipped o-ring and copper gasket in favor of a commetic) was somewhere in the 5-600 range for tanking, decking, measuring, polishing the crank, boring, etc. Internals were somewhere around 1k for longer rods and shorter pistons.
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:54 PM   #39
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in the b230's, the rods are the same na to turbo, as is the crank. NA pistons have a ~ 3cc dish vs the ~12cc dish (or is it 15.. been a while) for the turbo pistons, as well as a tighter and slightly higher ring pack on later NA pistons. In terms of bottom end stress, perhaps there's more on the higher compression ones, but I imagine cylinder pressures and the resultant forces on the crankshaft to produce said hp are going to be fairly similar, the other ingredients will change (boost, timing, possibly fuel).

Honestly, for 300hp, I would just run a stock engine.. either FT or F, whichever was more readily available in good shape, put a decent cam in it (the ubiquitous IPD turbo cam usually), and make sure the other ancillary components were good (Sufficient fuel injector/pump, good intercooler, better exhaust), and a decent turbo that has good exhaust flowing characteristics. That'd give you something that has good street manners, relatively low stress, and with a degree of owner caution and good maintenance, a good service life. This does assume easy access to good quality fuels (either 93/98 if in eu, e85, that sort of thing). The window for tuning mistakes is smaller on a b230F, one would need to keep that in mind if that's the route one takes. I'm a long time 16v person, so I wouldn't pay to cnc an 8v head myself, and depending on the cost of getting someone stateside to develop that program, I'd buy something from sweden instead (and it'd be a 16v anyway... in for a penny, in for a pound)

Obviously the same things that break stock parts break nice aftermarket parts.. aggressive timing, poor quality fuel (or poor state of tune), inattention to detail, not knowing how to treat the vehicle, etc. you just have a smaller window with the oe cast pistons and oe rods. Fair warning, if you put hbeams in an engine, the next likely hard failure point is going to be the pistons (soft point being the headgasket). To a certain extent everything is a trade-off somewhere, but that's kinda the fun of it all, right?





With the right machinist CNC heads aren't particularly expensive. My seats were done this way. A cnc head guy will have the equipment the finds the virtual centers for the machinist then his operations to the seat could begin. I dont propose a total rebuild on the CC as you may have seen with breakneck cnc head rework. Thats stuffs really great but for 300 hp its def not needed. A good rebuild complete with line boring, decking, etc shoudnt carry over 2 grand with forged race pistons . I even got my blocked o-ringed and custom all copper head gasket. I probably threw a few hundred dollars at the 8 valve head. But he should be able to have similar quality of work for around 1600.00 dollars USD! The pistons seen here would be dated to the newest stuff available. Petal tops offer even more that will translate to more hp and or efficiency of burn etc. One glance at the newest compound setups and the pistons the volvos run will make this point very clearly.

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Old 07-01-2021, 01:02 PM   #40
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ah ok, I'm tracking now. I thought you were talking about a full cnc workup (outside of the scope of 300hp), I was about to ask where you got that done inexpensively. yeah agreed, basic bowl and seat work is fairly straight forward for machines like that.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:21 PM   #41
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Sorry I wasnt talking to you but since you butted in I wasn't referring to a 230f or 230FT rods and if thats the case the rods can def handle 300 hp so again this only strengthens the argument that starting with h-beam doesn't really make that much sense since a lighter piston actually take stress of a rod that can already handle 300 hp.... I still stand by the argument that the preparatory machining to make sure everything is straight and true is most important for reliability and durability in a rebuild rebuild not what pistons he uses or his tune.

Regards
Hubert
You weren't talking to anybody as a forum is exactly that...a forum. Further, the title of the thread clearly states "B230R," no? Additionally, the m-rods from a 21/23 motor are, in reality, stronger than b230 rods...but at the cost of being extremely heavy. Just based on prior experience and the experience of others, a stock bottom end can tickle the 380-400whp without issue, but it is living on borrowed time at that point.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:50 PM   #42
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ah ok, I'm tracking now. I thought you were talking about a full cnc workup (outside of the scope of 300hp), I was about to ask where you got that done inexpensively. yeah agreed, basic bowl and seat work is fairly straight forward for machines like that.
Linuxman51,
Thank you for understanding what Im trying to say and not posting things just for the sake of arguing when half the time were basically saying the same thing. Sometime I don't get the point of dwelling on things everyone has settled. We know either rod style can handle 300 hp. For the most part the conversations were cool but certain people truly pine for real confrontations. U know my saying..... a waste of time....

I hope my friend from Germany considers all that been posted by everyone here and makes the right decision for him. Ultimately its his build so I don't need to control it. I stand by everything I posted here the first go round so there no need for me to waste any more bandwidth re posting at this point what would amount to spam. I truly enjoyed the discussion and have read your assessment about volvo internals long ago and I agree with what I saw posted. My experience with very accomplished engine builders and our discussions about the redblocks internals we saw with our eyes are in concurrence. It differs quite a bit from some of the other members post. What my machinist , Clay Ewing machine and dyno in Rockinham NC has done is posted here. Ill leave it at that.


Happy Tuning
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:07 PM   #43
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sufficient info has been provided, look forward to seeing how the OP solves this problem.
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Old 07-02-2021, 05:59 AM   #44
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because its my daily driver it seems that cast piston are the better option. I will stay with the head i have and will make a dyno run when i put it in the car. my boss said that when it makes more the 300hp he will pay the dyno cost and i will have a race against his 600hp Diesel Touareg.
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Old 07-02-2021, 10:55 AM   #45
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because its my daily driver it seems that cast piston are the better option. I will stay with the head i have and will make a dyno run when i put it in the car. my boss said that when it makes more the 300hp he will pay the dyno cost and i will have a race against his 600hp Diesel Touareg.
Id watch out. This doesn't sound like a fair race to me. Why would you want to race a daily driver and tear it up fooling with vw's with twice the power. That thing is also all wheel drive. I ran up on a built Audi Airbus once with the t6 and it wasnt pretty especially through the curves. It would have been better to have the T6 powering a AWD platform. The Airbus belonged to Tioga the owner of automotive specialist in Chapel Hill NC. It truly carved the road up and pulls very hard. Id be careful with a Toureg esp if it's a v10. I think the torque and traction at launch will be hard to overcome but thats just my opinion.

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Old 07-02-2021, 12:47 PM   #46
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he wants to see how good my volvo keeps up with the touareg and honestly i think i could have a chance, he has alot of extra weight in it probably weighs around 2.5-2.6 Tons so i have better power to weight.
and they had to limit the torque it makes because of the trans and stuff
and mine is at 1.2 tons ac delete, removed insulation no carpet, radio delete, also could easily remove the rear seats. im going to buy the acm.se Carbon fibre fender, hood, and trunk
i could make a twin turbo 19t because they didnt specify the amount of turbos i installed so
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Old 07-02-2021, 01:14 PM   #47
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A daily driver with no AC doesn't sound like fun in NC . Were hanging around at 35 degrees Celsius. I don't think you will gain traction off the line because youre lighter or have a better hp to weight ratio. What about torque? that matters.....Its what truly turns things. The vw probably has anti slip as well. He can really apply his power to the ground much more efficiently and in my opinion that makes a huge difference. I guess we will find out soon enuf if the lighter car at half the hp and grip will win. Sounds like you intend to push a daily driver pretty hard actually. Hope it works out.


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Old 07-07-2021, 08:10 AM   #48
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the engine was hurt because the cam plug blew out and because of that i ran the car with .5 liter oil for 40-45km. i think the rods were bent already because a year ago the boost solenoid didnt work. the boost was around 28 psi with stock lh2.2 sounded like firecrackers. it never ran right after that and huge pressure in the crankcase

Fuel pump is rated for 550 hp
injectors a flow tested and flow 550cc
AFR stayed at 12-11.5 during boost



Greetings to Germany from the USA. One simple antiquated piece prevents this. A pressure guard switch that cuts the fuel. Old as it may be it works. +1 for old school as it is a suggested jy pull in the old school steps to 300 hundred ponies. What failsafe do you have in place now to prevent this in the future. Im still surprised with a 1500 haltech and I beams you want cast pistons. It certainly seems like youll be pushing the daily driver playing with vw's. Seems like they'd be the last piece in a small lottery round up


Regards
Hubert

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Old 07-07-2021, 08:20 AM   #49
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the engine was hurt because the cam plug blew out and because of that i ran the car with .5 liter oil for 40-45km. i think the rods were bent already because a year ago the boost solenoid didnt work. the boost was around 28 psi with stock lh2.2 sounded like firecrackers. it never ran right after that and huge pressure in the crankcase

Fuel pump is rated for 550 hp
injectors a flow tested and flow 550cc
AFR stayed at 12-11.5 during boost
A $30 cam plug retainer is a wise investment. You could've won that race
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Old 07-07-2021, 10:12 AM   #50
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One simple antiquated piece prevents this. A pressure guard switch that cuts the fuel. Old as it may be it works. +1 for old school as it is a suggested jy pull in the old school steps to 300 hundred ponies. What failsafe do you have in place now to prevent this in the future.


Regards
Hubert
Why exactly would you want a mechanical device to artificially cut the fuel at 28psi ? Are you trying to melt a piston? If he's running 11.5-12 at full boost his fuel isn't the problem.


he could use that pressure switch as part of his boost control system to pull the plug but yanking the fuel out of the engine will kill it for sure.


Most likely the timing with lh2.2 was a bit too hot and the detonation is what caused the ensuant rod bending and freeze plug blowing... Nothing about 28psi that's going to blow a motor except that the tuning is off... gotta go that high in the first place to get these piles out of their own way.

If he goes haltech he can set his own timing and keep the thing from blowing away boundary layers.

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