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Old 01-16-2021, 05:56 PM   #1
apachechef
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1981 242 bought non running from teenage inexperienced owner

worked through K-Jet, fixed problem with FI relay, and twisted up, blocked nylon line in rubber cover from filter to distributor that had killed it.
starts easy, runs great.

on test runs, brakes were soft, and repeated pumps of pedal did not harden, and pedal would sink to floor. The car is hard to stop. I have driven dozens of 240 cars, I know what a normal car feels like.
engine off, slowly sinks to floor,
engine on, quickly sinks to floor.


inspected system.
overall car is rust free, in great shape, history of being dry Texas car.

Booster: appeared good, no sig rust or dirt, I had replaced the check valve and hose when going through engine, confirmed that valve could suck from engine side, but not from booster side.

Master: appeared new, or <1k miles fluid looked clear, and good level in front and back chambers

All hard lines: no sig corrosion, all are in great shape
Octopus: also looked new or <1k miles, but wire was disconnected

6 brake hoses: new or <1k miles, stainless with vinyl covers

Solid front rotors
Girling front calipers
new looking hardware, pads
solid rear rotors
new looking rear calipers
two valve devices over rear axle, indeterminate age, possibly original , not new.

terminal of octopus was grounded, so octopus replaced. new from IPD.
System bled per this from 240turbo.com with new DOT4

terminal no longer cont with ground.

Symptoms persist.

Hooked new lines to new master from IPD, bent lines back into reservoir, bench bled with short pumps until bubbles went away. installed, bled system.

Symptoms persist.

checked out front calipers.
RIGHT: mismatched dimples, removed, tested, proves to be mis-assembled.
LEFT: one dimple

new calipers from rockauto bench tested. Both are correctly assembled.

upper brake line connects to upper bleeder.
lower brake line connects to both lower bleeders

Octopus checked before installing, all lines are correctly routed according to image above.

after bleeding:

Symptoms persist.

Bled again
Large zip ties hold reservoir to master.
Ass of car is very high, as if parked facing down a STEEP hill
Motive Power bleeder holding two quarts of DOT4
15psi, topping up pressure each step
little grease around base of bleeder, clear vinyl hose going to waste bottle.
Bled in order as above, tapping calipers and the rear above axle device during rear caliper bleeding.
bleeders opened enough to have brisk flow of fluid, no bubbles.
A LOT of fluid run from each bleeder.

Symptoms persist.

Firewood and kindling stacked under car.

Light it or try something else?
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Last edited by apachechef; 01-16-2021 at 06:01 PM..
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Old 01-16-2021, 06:09 PM   #2
dl242gt
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When I've had a brake system be completely gone over like that. The pedal is usually low and not inspiring. However, after some driving the pedal gets better as everything wears in.

Does the pedal pump up at all? One of the things I noticed that will affect the pedal is having the brake pad shims in place. There are two on each pad, a metal one and a composite one. Without them you will have a low brake pedal.
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1982 242 turbo. 338k miles. MVP coilovers and 3" exhaust. Flowed 405 with a V15. Cossie turbine housing with upgraded compressor housing. 90+, IPD remote oil filter. Some other goodness, too. Been lots of fun over 25 years. Restored in 2k. Now ready for a 2nd restoration.

1993 245 Classic, 430k miles, enem V15. IPD bars and chassis braces. Simons sport exhaust from Scandix. sbabbs ezk chip. Been a good road warrior. Genuine Volvo rebuilt leaky M47.
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Old 01-16-2021, 07:14 PM   #3
vxracer
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Save a 242. I'm down. That's a keeper! In my experience, and age. Everything rubber or plastic needs replacement. Even on my new 97 rebuild. Brakes will need careful checking top to bottom. New master, are the brakes bled carefully? Even caliper slide could be an issue with age. I am in a heavy salt environment, myself. Lucky that they seem fine. Even new cars have brake noise here.

Last edited by vxracer; 01-16-2021 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 01-17-2021, 08:42 AM   #4
VB242
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Probably air in the rear lines, Jack the back of the car as high as you can and tap on the pressure reducing valves. Then bleed the next day until you get a good pedal.
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Old 01-17-2021, 01:51 PM   #5
apachechef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VB242 View Post
Probably air in the rear lines, Jack the back of the car as high as you can and tap on the pressure reducing valves. Then bleed the next day until you get a good pedal.
been done.
pedel doesnt hardern after pumps, just squish squish squish
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Old 01-17-2021, 04:07 PM   #6
2manyturbos
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If you have resistance, yet, the pedal will go all the way to the floor, you definitely have a bad master cylinder. Even air will compress and stop the pedal from reaching the floor if the system is not leaking and the seals in the master cylinder are doing their job.
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Old 01-17-2021, 04:40 PM   #7
apachechef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
If you have resistance, yet, the pedal will go all the way to the floor, you definitely have a bad master cylinder. Even air will compress and stop the pedal from reaching the floor if the system is not leaking and the seals in the master cylinder are doing their job.
3rd new master, bench bled, with care taken to not overextend stroke into "badlands" despite them being new.

Amazon and bell metric are sending brake pressure test kit and metric plugs, going to test each circuit

Part of confusion is the octopus was bad, remaining grounded in disconnected state, and also the right front caliper was assembled wrong, when both replaced and confirmed to be correct, problem persists.
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Old 01-17-2021, 05:12 PM   #8
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Let me make that more clear. If you can get the pedal to stop before the floor, then, as you are holding pressure on it the pedal continues to slowly drop, you have either an internal or external leak. The only possibility of an internal leak is the master cylinder. When that happens the fluid goes right past the seal back into the reservoir.

Have you bled the lines right where they attach to the master cylinder? If not, that could be your problem. It is really hard to get the air to go down hill through the octopus and out to the calipers. If you haven't bled those, get a helper to pump the brakes and them hold the pedal down while you crack each line open for a very short time. IOW, you don't want the pedal to go all the way down before you close the line. Cover the fitting/wrench with a shop rag to keep the brake fluid off the body.
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Old 01-17-2021, 05:45 PM   #9
apachechef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Let me make that more clear. If you can get the pedal to stop before the floor, then, as you are holding pressure on it the pedal continues to slowly drop, you have either an internal or external leak. The only possibility of an internal leak is the master cylinder. When that happens the fluid goes right past the seal back into the reservoir.

Have you bled the lines right where they attach to the master cylinder? If not, that could be your problem. It is really hard to get the air to go down hill through the octopus and out to the calipers. If you haven't bled those, get a helper to pump the brakes and them hold the pedal down while you crack each line open for a very short time. IOW, you don't want the pedal to go all the way down before you close the line. Cover the fitting/wrench with a shop rag to keep the brake fluid off the body.
I took new short brake lines attached to the master, looped them up, and submerged them in the reservoir, and pumped pedal until bubbles stopped.
are you saying I need to do that at octopus?>
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Old 01-17-2021, 05:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apachechef View Post
I took new short brake lines attached to the master, looped them up, and submerged them in the reservoir, and pumped pedal until bubbles stopped.
are you saying I need to do that at octopus?>
No. What you did was the equivalent of bench bleeding the master cylinder. You probably have quite a bit of air trapped in the lines that run from the master cylinder down to the octopus. Crack the flare nut on each line right at the master cylinder while someone else is pressing the brake pedal. When you do, I'll bet you will hear a lot of spitting of air and fluid mixed coming out. I have never been able to get a split 240 brake system to bleed all the air out without doing this step.
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Old 01-17-2021, 05:56 PM   #11
dl242gt
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I would also try the helper and pumping the pedal should force any locked air out. I've had trouble in the past with these cars. I was only able to get about a half pedal with the brakes on a flathood I was working on years ago. It had to be driven with a half pedal for a week and then the next time we tried it all the rest of the air came out easily.
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Old 01-17-2021, 06:06 PM   #12
apachechef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
No. What you did was the equivalent of bench bleeding the master cylinder. You probably have quite a bit of air trapped in the lines that run from the master cylinder down to the octopus. Crack the flare nut on each line right at the master cylinder while someone else is pressing the brake pedal. When you do, I'll bet you will hear a lot of spitting of air and fluid mixed coming out. I have never been able to get a split 240 brake system to bleed all the air out without doing this step.
Cool, will try tonight.

so idea is air in lines to octopus that rises back into master, and your move will get that out?

getting so sick of DOT4
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Old 01-17-2021, 06:31 PM   #13
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Exactly. I’ve had air trapped there every time I have replaced a 240 master cylinder. Volvo realized the problem and actually put bleeder ports on the side of 7/9 series master cylinders in order to bleed those vertical drop lines.
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